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Friday, August 8, 2008

Another day, another rant

I sometimes come across as someone who could referred to as a curmudgeon and a bit of a retro-grouch. You'll often hear me rant against whatever new and improved technology is being rammed down our throats as the next best thing. While it's true there are numerous things to complain about in the bike industry and maybe one day I'll tackle integrated seatmasts, spokes made of tubular carbon fiber, and despite the fact I have a stash of new-in-box LOOK S2R mountain bike pedals that will last me through the apocalypse I take little glee in hearing about the recent recall of 40,000 pairs of LOOK Keo pedals. I really do like the new stuff but wish there was more consideration for quality over lightweight or performance over style. Which brings me to the impetus for this blog entry.

We've recently built up a couple of cross/touring bikes and while I usually recommend a decent set of cantilevers for this type of bike in both cases the client opted for disc brakes. I actually like the idea of disc brakes for road bikes, I'm okay with it, really. And there are a number of very nice cross bikes out there where you have no choice but to use disc brakes with them. And being a guy that generally rides Campagnolo who doesn't make disc compatible hubs, I've even gone as far as to find a hub manufacturer who makes both road and mountain hubs and both Shimano and Campagnolo compatible freehub bodies (DT Swiss, though White Industries also does this, perhaps others) so that I could install a Campagnolo freehub body onto a disc hub and run disc brakes with Campagnolo shifters. So let it be said that I have at least given it a try before becoming suitably unimpressed by this appropriation of mountain bike brakes by the world of road and cross bikes.

Check this video out:



Four for four rotors came out of the box brand new and this bent. It's hypnotic how it dances with the music in the background which is amusing enough but doesn't make me any happier about the additional set up time required to "tune" as in "bend the crap out of" four disc brake rotors. Avid BB7 disc brakes aren't the most expensive or high end disc brakes available, they aren't even that high up the Avid line-up, but when dealing with the relatively new frontier of disc brakes on road bikes there aren't many choices and these represent pretty much the highest end disc brake option available for road bikes. Firstly, most higher end disc brakes are hydraulic while road component manufacturers don't have any plans to offer an integrated hydraulic compatible shift/brake lever in the near future. This means cable actuated disc brakes are realistically the only option. Of course most cable actuated disc brakes are designed to work with a v-brake lever which pulls more cable than a road brake so even in the cable actuated disc brake world the options are limited. Hence the conundrum, to use disc brakes on a road or cross bike your options are limited to a single hard to get model from Shimano, a couple of Taiwanese knock-offs, a sole IRD model, and these Avid BB7s which are considered by most to be the "industry standard" for road compatible disc brakes.

I will admit disc brakes as a concept are a pretty good idea. Brake pads last longer, the brakes work better in the rain, you can beat the bejesus out of your rims knocking them out of true without compromising your braking, but if the industry is going to push this concept while touting these and numerous other benefits, shouldn't they offer a more impressive product? And while there are advantages to using disc brakes there are plenty of disadvantages too, like convoluted fender mounting techniques snaking their way around the calipers like in the following picture.



Also, bolting on stoppers where things like racks might normally go creates it's own set of problems. Like the rack you need to use which moves the "hooks" where your pannier might attach further up the rack frame rather than right down at the bottom where they would traditionally be and a weird appendage on the rack that despite articulating in three dimensions and being spaced out from the rack itself still needs a bunch of spacers to get it to attach to the frame properly.



So that's a whole lot of complaining about something to get to this point. Do the brakes work? Yup, and though I'm not happy with how they are designed and what needs to be done to get them to work on a bike and the adhoc redesign and modification of standardized items like racks and fenders, they do work pretty well. But considering how well a properly set up pair of cantilever brakes work I'm not sure they are worth the hassle. That said, I'm sure these won't be the last set of disc brakes I put on a road bike and I really do look forward to the day when more effective and better designed disc brakes are available for road bikes. Until then, call me a retro-grouch, I'll be sticking to cantilevers on my cross bike.

6 comments:

Elliot said...

Quick question. When will you start carrying fixed-gear pie plates?

manfred mann said...

Is that valve stem lock nuts you are using as spacers?

Craig Sinclair said...

Yes, those are valve stem nuts being used as spacers.

Dwayneo said...

don't they make HM carbon fiber spacers for such an application?

jfw said...

So, do I get royalties for having this movie of my bike on the internet?

Dwayneo said...

A rant that needs to be ranted....
Caution: this is a rant about mountain bike crap not road crap....
please continue;

Fox has the RP23 shock that is said to give the option to adjust the "propedal" firmness of the suspension it carries....

I am a "propedal" skeptic to start, feeling that a full "lockout" of a shock or fork that the rider (me) can control is more desirable then the suspension companies pre setting the tunability (that a word?) of a tunable suspension.

That being said I jumped into the "propedal" world recently because that is what is delivered on my outrageously beautiful Titus racer "X" Carbon.

So I built the bike and tried out the "propedal" platform on a little mountain called Mount 7 in Golden B.C.

13 K ups with ass kicking decents that I pissed myself on.
Rode the ups with the "propedal" in what I believed to the firmest position (recent hardtail convert) and found it okish and handy that it wasn't the full travel of the suspension bobbing up and down, and enjoyed the day although the suspension may have been too firm for the decents even in the "open" position, chalked that up to having too much air in the shock which I did, it was at about 125psi.
Discussed my adventure with a friend and he claimed I had the "propedal" setting in the easiest setting not the firmest. I had tried the settings at home and in the parking lot and such and found the number 1 setting to be firm, I recalled one end of the settings from Fox to be the firmest (naturally) and the other the easiest but could not recall which was which so I road the day in setting 1 and he claimed that setting 3 is the setting I should have ridden for the ups.
Once home I immediately checked the Fox specs and found my friend to be correct, 3 is the firmest and 1 is the easiest (more bob) says Fox on their disc they send along with the shock for the proper set up.

So I turned the handy adjustment dial to position 1 as Fox describes, and set out on to the pavement to sprint for a bob test.
I tried all three settings on dry pavement sprints, multiple sprints with and without the fork locked out.
I have concluded no noticeable performance or ridng feel characteristic from the "propedal" 1-2-3 settings, they all bobbed the same amount to me.
Not scientific enough I thought;
I then repeated the sprints again and measured the difference from o ring to shock wiper each sprint, being mindful to keep the bike on flat pavement with the same 100 meter sprint, same cog and gearing etc. etc.
No difference, all measurements within 2 mm of movement in the rear shock.
10mm of bob is the norm with a whopping 12mm on setting 2 for one sprint, however I could not repeat the 12mm bob again since so I chalk that up as an anomaly.

All having virtually same amount of pedal forced induced suspension bob, so I wanted to ensure the shock is set properly for me per the Fox specs for their sag for air spring setting guidelines; I verified my sag at 14-14.5mm (checked and rechecked a few times with various pressure to ensure accuracy) correct per Fox for the 57.1 mm of shock travel per this RP 23 shock, which is set at 100psi for my body weight of 166lbs.
Then I thought perhaps "propedal" is actually bump force suspension absorption from firm to light using 1,2,3 etc. not for pedal bob, so off I went and
consulted the disk information from Fox but it clearly claims to "reduce suspension movement from pedaling forces while providing bump absorption"
Conclusion, Fox and their "propedal" is what I feared and expected, nice marketing fluff. I cannot understand how it takes 3 settings for such insignificant differences (none really).

It may be that this shock is defective...my "friend" has replaced a few Fox forks as of late due to poor performance of this type of platform; the dreaded "propedal"

If it is defective then Fox is again in the doghouse for shipping broken crap to me before I can break it.

All in all I would prefer a shock with a lock-out and then full travel, Fox had done that in the past, 5 yrs ago or more they spec'd many xc bikes with a lockout shock which worked great...and they have reintroduced it on their forks again this year...moving away from the "propedal" platform in their top line XC forks to a full rigid lock-out with remote shift on the fly slicker then snot handlebar mount...so why do they insist on ramming it down our throats with their shocks (most top end xc bikes have the RP-23 spec'd from the factory)....perhaps they have too much invested or some CTO who has his/her career at stake with the technology...

Interesting from DT is the shock they have introduced to compete with the "propedal" platform which has 3 positions to shift on the fly which allows;
1. full rigid lockout
2. partial 30% travel
3. full 100% travel.

DT here I come...course I have a DT fork story but that will be for another day...